[OnTime]

I bet I know what is inducing the lean when hands are off the bar!! I need one of you gents with the Michelins in question to test this.

First: Confirm bike leans at speed with hands removed.

Second: Get up to speed and turn engine off and while at speed remove hands from bar. I bet it doesn't lean with a dead engine.

BMW crank orientation is acting just like a propeller of a plane. You are getting an induced torque from the spinning crank which causes bike to veer.

I can't answer as to why this only happens with M6 tires.

Let me know!

 

[Quattroa4m]

Update: My BMW dealer says it's a tire problem. They pulled both wheels, checked everything, and remounted. They confirmed it's pulling to the left. I had a case open w/ Michelin. Michelin's escalation point finally tells me that... Road 6's are not 'approved fitment' for the BMW and that it's the dealer's fault for installing them in the 1st place!! I had the Michelin rep talking to the BMW service manager, and both are still pointing fingers.
Anyone in the business ever hear of the correct tire size 'not being approved' for a model of motorcycle!?

Odds are, your dealer is talking with a Michelin Minion, not someone with an understanding of the tire and/or the application. Chances are, the Minion went to the Michelin website, tried to plugged in R 1300 GS, found no fitments and pronounced that the Road 6 wasn't an "approved fitment". Case closed.

Maybe you'll have better luck, but at the moment the Michelin website seems to have no idea what a R 1300 GS is.

Or this is Michelin's not so subtle way of admitting that they don't have a tire good enough for the R 1300 GS?

 

[bosnjo]

I bet I know what is inducing the lean when hands are off the bar!! I need one of you gents with the Michelins in question to test this.

First: Confirm bike leans at speed with hands removed.

Second: Get up to speed and turn engine off and while at speed remove hands from bar. I bet it doesn't lean with a dead engine.

BMW crank orientation is acting just like a propeller of a plane. You are getting an induced torque from the spinning crank which causes bike to veer.

I can't answer as to why this only happens with M6 tires.

Let me know!

If you have read this entire thread, you'd find the test that had been made by me. Read the post #18 !!!

 

[OnTime]

Bosnjo, read #18. Good stuff. But there is no mention of doing a dead engine test with M6 tires. Dead engine takes the crank rotation out of the equation. I contend the veer is caused by the horizontal crank orientation just as we see a shimmy when sitting at idle.

Willing to take a sobriety test and further state Michelin has no simlar reports for bikes where crank orientation is vertical.

I only suspect the actual cause not the reason M6 is particularly susceptible. Cause gets kinda hairy.

Michelin has a choice: Redesign the M6 just for boxer or write it off and only address the far larger overall market. Michelin chose the latter.

Now I read some boxer users have no issues with the M6. I have no guesses as to why this is...carcass variance, place of manufacture, slight compound diff, road surfaces...

But you did the right thing...ditch the tires!

 

[450564u]

No way a modern motorcycle radial tire knows how to swerve "left". A damaged tire? Yes. Change to another of the same brand, and not go back to your old tire and decide it is a road 6 issue. That proves nothing about all Michelin road 6 tires, just the one you have had (damaged?) installed. Powered tire machines can damage tires used improperly. Removing and remounting a damaged tire is ineffective at the core problem. Use another tire of the same type/brand! This tire is on many, many of bikes now and no endemic reported issues like this.

 

[bosnjo]

No way a modern motorcycle radial tire knows how to swerve "left". A damaged tire? Yes. Change to another of the same brand, and not go back to your old tire and decide it is a road 6 issue. That proves nothing about all Michelin road 6 tires, just the one you have had (damaged?) installed. Powered tire machines can damage tires used improperly. Removing and remounting a damaged tire is ineffective at the core problem. Use another tire of the same type/brand! This tire is on many, many of bikes now and no endemic reported issues like this.

Just read throught all this thread and you'll see how many GS and other brands motorcycle owners experienced the same issue with Road 6, and only with Road 6, before trying to humiliate other members of this forum.

 

[450564u]

Just read throught all this thread and you'll see how many GS and other brands motorcycle owners experienced the same issue with Road 6, and only with Road 6, before trying to humiliate other members of this forum.

Investigate the problem the right way. As it was done it isn't isolating the tires across the board, just that single tire. OK, that tire has a por0blem but blaming every road 6 as defective andspeculate they "all" are bad and start an ambulance chase thread by insurance companies? No one's being humiliated, just lead to a better way to better isolate and solve the problem for everyone. Doing it wrong benefits no one. In God we trust all else bring data. Where is the root cause data? Until that is reproducable we have nothing but speculation. Change to an identical brand and ROAD 6 tire and repeat. How hard or humiliating is that? But he didn't do that.

 

[Quattroa4m]

Investigate the problem the right way. As it was done it isn't isolating the tires across the board, just that single tire. OK, that tire has a por0blem but blaming every road 6 as defective andspeculate they "all" are bad and start an ambulance chase thread by insurance companies? No one's being humiliated, just lead to a better way to better isolate and solve the problem for everyone. Doing it wrong benefits no one. In God we trust all else bring data. Where is the root cause data? Until that is reproducable we have nothing but speculation. Change to an identical brand and ROAD 6 tire and repeat. How hard or humiliating is that? But he didn't do that.

The problem has been reported on different forums and different bikes. In comparison to car tire sales, motorcycle tire sales are minuscule. Meaning that several reports of the Road 6 causing a pull or a lean...are significant.

So far Michelin seems to have refused to engage on the subject...so you're not going to get a replacement. Why would you buy another set of Michelins from the same company that you already know won't back their product?

There are too many other good choices, and too few riding days, to screw around with a tire experiment to exonerate...Michelin?? That beggars belief.

 

[Krons]

Investigate the problem the right way. As it was done it isn't isolating the tires across the board, just that single tire. OK, that tire has a por0blem but blaming every road 6 as defective andspeculate they "all" are bad and start an ambulance chase thread by insurance companies? No one's being humiliated, just lead to a better way to better isolate and solve the problem for everyone. Doing it wrong benefits no one. In God we trust all else bring data. Where is the root cause data? Until that is reproducable we have nothing but speculation. Change to an identical brand and ROAD 6 tire and repeat. How hard or humiliating is that? But he didn't do that.

Welcome to the forum, you make a hell of an entrance. Part of the issue here is Michelin made no effort to rectify the issue, poorly played on their part.

 

[450564u]

The problem has been reported on different forums and different bikes. In comparison to car tire sales, motorcycle tire sales are minuscule. Meaning that several reports of the Road 6 causing a pull or a lean...are significant.

So far Michelin seems to have refused to engage on the subject...so you're not going to get a replacement. Why would you buy another set of Michelins from the same company that you already know won't back their product?

There are too many other good choices, and too few riding days, to screw around with a tire experiment to exonerate...Michelin?? That beggars belief.

We still need to isolate the problem correctly to move your point. As is, I don't see quantitative evidence it is endemic to the tire, or even ONE tire yet. Was it damaged in installation by a too rough auto tire machine? What is the root cause, the tire or the installation or? We certainly know the accumulated result but not what the chain of events have been. That should be good enough to raise a flag without saying it is the tire itself yet. We can't, we don't have the proper scientific evidence.

If users replace the bad tire with a like replacement and the problem goes away, we now have a statistical set of evidence being accumulated that says XYZ of XYZ of road 6's are problamatic for "some" reason (we don't know that yet, though). NOW we can act properly and suggest until the real root cause is established, best move on. This will make Michellin drill down into the problem. But still, it may not be the tire so we need to reframe from that line of thinking. How many users did replace the "bad" tire with the same and had no issues, or repeated the same exact problem? We don't know but knowing this says we do have SOMETHING unique to a ROAD 6 that can cause issues. WHAT is still undetermined.

You say Michellin won't replace a tire that can't be let's call it "balanced" for now? I doubt that's the case. These guys have been doing this too long to let a "balance" issue go and not collect up the tire for analysis, the very best form of QA.

 

[Quattroa4m]

We still need to isolate the problem correctly to move your point. As is, I don't see quantitative evidence it is endemic to the tire, or even ONE tire yet. Was it damaged in installation by a too rough auto tire machine? What is the root cause, the tire or the installation or? We certainly know the accumulated result but not what the chain of events have been. That should be good enough to raise a flag without saying it is the tire itself yet. We can't, we don't have the proper scientific evidence.

If users replace the bad tire with a like replacement and the problem goes away, we now have a statistical set of evidence being accumulated that says XYZ of XYZ of road 6's are problamatic for "some" reason (we don't know that yet, though). NOW we can act properly and suggest until the real root cause is established, best move on. This will make Michellin drill down into the problem. But still, it may not be the tire so we need to reframe from that line of thinking. How many users did replace the "bad" tire with the same and had no issues, or repeated the same exact problem? We don't know but knowing this says we do have SOMETHING unique to a ROAD 6 that can cause issues. WHAT is still undetermined.

You say Michellin won't replace a tire that can't be let's call it "balanced" for now? I doubt that's the case. These guys have been doing this too long to let a "balance" issue go and not collect up the tire for analysis, the very best form of QA.
[/QUOTE

You're welcome to believe whatever you want to believe and buy whatever tire you want.

At the end of the day this is a forum where we exchange ideas, welcome the experiences of others, and do our best to respect one another.

 

[450564u]

Welcome to the forum, you make a hell of an entrance. Part of the issue here is Michelin made no effort to rectify the issue, poorly played on their part.

I'd argue the thread made a hell of an entrance for unsubstantiated scientific technique. Is it OK to blame anything with inaccurate analysis? I'd be fired overnight if I approached a problem like this thread has. We have no clue if it is the tire, or a set of installation issues that damage the tire. None. That's OK to know the end result in certain number of users experience but to say it is "the tire" specifically is flat wrong right now. It could be...but not until the reproducable root cause is made.

I have no evidence that Michelin is shoving this under the rug. Getting field problems in the lab is the best from of running QA you can get. I'd need more specific evidence of that major accusation. Like I said, in God we trust, all else bring the data. I'm an enginner by trade and don't take lightly to erroneous cause and effect analysis. Doing it right is more effective than doing it wrong. I'm trying to point out a better path. Only work with facts. The fact we have is some road 6's having problems. Full stop. We have no documented evidence why, yet. I see no documented evidence yet, that Michelin is refusing replacements for tires that can't be, again let's call it "balanced" for now. Your power is in the proof, accusations weaken the argument.

 

[Quattroa4m]

I'd argue the thread made a hell of an entrance for unsubstantiated scientific technique. Is it OK to blame anything with inaccurate analysis? I'd be fired overnight if I approached a problem like this thread has. We have no clue if it is the tire, or a set of installation issues that damage the tire. None. That's OK to know the end result in certain number of users experience but to say it is "the tire" specifically is flat wrong right now. It could be...but not until the reproducable root cause is made.

I have no evidence that Michelin is shoving this under the rug. Getting field problems in the lab is the best from of running QA you can get. I'd need more specific evidence of that major accusation. Like I said, in God we trust, all else bring the data. I'm an enginner by trade and don't take lightly to erroneous cause and effect analysis. Doing it right is more effective than doing it wrong. I'm trying to point out a better path. Only work with facts. The fact we have is some road 6's having problems. Full stop. We have no documented evidence why, yet. I see no documented evidence yet, that Michelin is refusing replacements for tires that can't be, again let's call it "balanced" for now. Your power is in the proof, accusations weaken the argument.

You've probably heard about the new kid who's boss told him to figure out how hot a turbine output was making an adjacent upright. The kid got to work, heat transfer equations and all. Two hours later his boss came back for the answer. The kid wasn't quite done, but showed his boss all his work. Exasperated, his boss picked up a thermal probe and said "Stick this on here and tell me how hot it is."

Sometimes a bad tire is just a bad tire. You need to let go and move on.

 

[450564u]

You're welcome to believe whatever you want to believe and buy whatever tire you want.

At the end of the day this is a forum where we exchange ideas, welcome the experiences of others, and do our best to respect one another.

Spread damaging unsubstantiated comments about companies products isn't cool. An experience yes. But until the root cause is vetted, stop the accusations. That's not the way to respect anyone. In this group or not and If this is what you call fair play, count me out. I've already explained how to properly go about this truthfully and exchange properly vetted information and to drop the claims of defect until we have repeatable proof. Again, truth is your strength. You need to moderate fairly to everyone.

This can be a good site for more than R1200 owners. I'm looking to replace 12,000 plus mile Pirelli Angel GT2's on a V100S Moto Guzzi. Like you, I search for typical user experiences with various stuff. Just so you know, the 2024 V100S comes with the Michelin Road 6's stock, where the 2023 used the Pirelli GT2's. I have no reason to suggest why the switch was done. Better bulk deal, better performance, better ride quality I don't know. I know the Pirellie's were great, even at the end they were OK. Sure, the flatted profile made turns a "keep the bars pushed" affair for sure. But EOL tires are all weird.

 

[Quattroa4m]

Spread damaging unsubstantiated comments about companies products isn't cool. An experience yes. But until the root cause is vetted, stop the accusations. That's not the way to respect anyone. In this group or not and If this is what you call fair play, count me out. I've already explained how to properly go about this truthfully and exchange properly vetted information and to drop the claims of defect until we have repeatable proof. Again, truth is your strength. You need to moderate fairly to everyone.

This can be a good site for more than R1200 owners. I'm looking to replace 12,000 plus mile Pirelli Angel GT2's on a V100S Moto Guzzi. Like you, I search for typical user experiences with various stuff. Just so you know, the 2024 V100S comes with the Michelin Road 6's stock, where the 2023 used the Pirelli GT2's. I have no reason to suggest why the switch was done. Better bulk deal, better performance, better ride quality I don't know. I know the Pirellie's were great, even at the end they were OK. Sure, the flatted profile made turns a "keep the bars pushed" affair for sure. But EOL tires are all weird.

So 5 posts in, you've decided that you're the only one with the correct approach to determining whether or not the Road 6 actually has issues. I'm sure that this a huge relief to everyone, knowing that you've taken on that burden.

In the meantime we'll take to the hilltops shouting what a great tire the Road 6 is as well as writing letters of great sorrow to Michelin regarding our misunderstanding of the greatness of the Road 6.

 

[450564u]

You've probably heard about the new kid who's boss told him to figure out how hot a turbine output was making an adjacent upright. The kid got to work, heat transfer equations and all. Two hours later his boss came back for the answer. The kid wasn't quite done, but showed his boss all his work. Exasperated, his boss picked up a thermal probe and said "Stick this on here and tell me how hot it is."

Sometimes a bad tire is just a bad tire. You need to let go and move on.

That's not what this site is trying to do...it is trying to say all ROAD 6 tires are bad with no substantiated evidence of that claim. To make that accustaion isn't fair, or even accurate. I see no documented proof that Michelin won't make a bad situation good. .PDF it, put it on the site. This is all fine when it isn't your company. We have no data suggesting it is indeed the tire design, or a problamatic installation process unique to the tire. We surely don't see every tire having issues.

The proper solution to isolate it to THAT specific tire is about as easy as your joke. Replace the "bad" tire with a like model. What happens? How often? Of the tires that work how were they installed and on what machines? Do they stay good or act out over time (this can still be internal damage from installation)? We have a lot of TRUTH to collect that we seem to want to push aside. Again, not cool. You don't get to just "move on" after trashing someone, or something, until it is truth.

It is fair to say we seem to have some ROAD 6 tires for some reason that have acted out. That's all you know. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[Quattroa4m]

That's not what this site is trying to do...it is trying to say all ROAD 6 tires are bad with no substantiated evidence of that claim. To make that accustaion isn't fair, or even accurate. I see no documented proof that Michelin won't make a bad situation good. .PDF it, put it on the site. This is all fine when it isn't your company. We have no data suggesting it is indeed the tire design, or a problamatic installation process unique to the tire. We surely don't see every tire having issues.

The proper solution to isolate it to THAT specific tire is about as easy as your joke. Replace the "bad" tire with a like model. What happens? How often? Of the tires that work how were they installed and on what machines? Do they stay good or act out over time (this can still be internal damage from installation)? We have a lot of TRUTH to collect that we seem to want to push aside. Again, not cool. You don't get to just "move on" after trashing someone, or something, until it is truth.

It is fair to say we seem to have some ROAD 6 tires for some reason that have acted out. That's all you know. Why is this so hard to understand?

Then go buy some and move on.

 

[450564u]

So 5 posts in, you've decided that you're the only one with the correct approach to determining whether or not the Road 6 actually has issues. I'm sure that this a huge relief to everyone, knowing that you've taken on that burden.

In the meantime we'll take to the hilltops shouting what a great tire the Road 6 is as well as writing letters of great sorrow to Michelin regarding our misunderstanding of the greatness of the Road 6.

Nonesense again that I'm the holder of the magic ROAD 6 key. The scientific process makes the decisions for you. I make none at all. I'm not God, so the process needs to bring the data. Get reproducible and accurate data and that data isn't a possession to one person. Reproducible means it is unbiased and can be repeated by anyone that follows the same process. No bias. Now we can "move on" after improvements mitigate what really went wrong. As is we have accusations, nothing more. Not cool.

I'm out on this. Pick your method. I'll stick with the truth. Less than that isn't useful to me.

 

[Krons]

The proper solution to isolate it to THAT specific tire is about as easy as your joke. Replace the "bad" tire with a like model. What happens?

That should be easily possible—when Michelin furnishes a replacement tire. Why don’t they? Seems very odd for a premium brand.

Interesting because I had an issue with a Mitas front tire, after some communication and following their warranty replacement they are sending me a new one at no cost.

 

[bosnjo]

I gues this new kid on the block is paid to defend Michelin as there are so many complaints all over the forums of different motorcycle brands on this subject. He's trying "scientific" approach, thinking we are too stupid to understand his words of "wisdom".
Doesn't really deserve any further discussion.